Curse

Master Ketsu · Aug 08, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

SF is fine, just annoying.

[skill]Wastrel's Collapse[/skill] ?
Skill might as well not exist. No one will ever use that except in extremely gimmicky 1v1 builds.

Cherng Butter · Aug 08, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

I wouldnt say it makes it easier to shut down a monk on a spike, but that its more effective. Instead of giving them a negative effect on the for casting through it like diversion and shame, it doesnt let them do anything at all. More of a punishment for having a really bad midline who doesnt see the spike coming and interrupt it.

Are you saying that this doesnt put it on par with RoF? At 12 prot, RoF can save 134 damage assuming its maxed out, which on a spike it would be. Guardian on the other hand, give you a "chance" to stop some of their spike. Figuring the average evis spike is ~155 damage plus deep wound even if you block two of the three (Evis, Exe, Agonizing) you still dont save as much damage. With changes in shutdown and prevention it shouldnt be that much of a problem anyways. Like I said earlier...might need to up the recharge, but the only thing changing it the cast time. The blocking mechanism is still the same as it is currently.

So how exactly is a monk going to stop an adrenaline spike (or any spike, for that matter...) when hit by a blackout from long distance? That's not a punishment for a bad midline, that's just incredibly cheap. And I play mesmer too.

A guardian on a 1/4 cast kind of blows rof out of the water during melee spikes...40+% block is a huge chance, and if you can throw that up whenever you want, nothing is going to get through if you have even pretty slow fingers...guardian as it is is pretty balanced...maybe a 3/4 cast, but I think its fine.

Thomas.knbk · Aug 08, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

I took out the movement speed increase which made these builds unkiteable. Now you have to take a speed boost skill such as Run As One to have the same effect. Makes them burn another slot on their skill bar.

Right. I overlooked that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Are you saying that this doesnt put it on par with RoF? At 12 prot, RoF can save 134 damage assuming its maxed out, which on a spike it would be. Guardian on the other hand, give you a "chance" to stop some of their spike. Figuring the average evis spike is ~155 damage plus deep wound even if you block two of the three (Evis, Exe, Agonizing) you still dont save as much damage. With changes in shutdown and prevention it shouldnt be that much of a problem anyways. Like I said earlier...might need to up the recharge, but the only thing changing it the cast time. The blocking mechanism is still the same as it is currently.

No. Not at all. RoF saves 134 dmg if it's maxed out, but saying it will be on a spike is not true. If their warriors use Conjures it's guaranteed not to max out, and even if they don't a lot of hits won't exceed 67 damage. If you get attacked by one warrior, reversal of fortune and guardian are currently on par. Guardian harms their adrenaline gain, and if it blocks an evis the deep wound doesn't go through, unlike RoF which will let DW go through. If you're under attack from anything more than one warrior (War + Para, 2 Wars, even a war and a monk because there's a chance the monk will trigger rof), the damage reduction from Guardian wil exceed the damage reduction from RoF. You could easily prevent over 150 dmg with a 5e skill. That's a bit too much on a 1/4 sec cast.

Seamus Finn · Aug 08, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Are you saying that this doesnt put it on par with RoF? At 12 prot, RoF can save 134 damage assuming its maxed out, which on a spike it would be. Guardian on the other hand, give you a "chance" to stop some of their spike. Figuring the average evis spike is ~155 damage plus deep wound even if you block two of the three (Evis, Exe, Agonizing) you still dont save as much damage. With changes in shutdown and prevention it shouldnt be that much of a problem anyways. Like I said earlier...might need to up the recharge, but the only thing changing it the cast time. The blocking mechanism is still the same as it is currently.

There is no comparison. Guardian would be so far superior to RoF it would be ridiculous. Most importantly, Guardian is not an anti adren spike skill. It is a small prot that is meant to relieve pressure from physicals(much like Shield of Absorption, remember when that was 1/4 sec?), NOT stop adren spikes. The 2 sec recharge meant a good prot monk could deny soft targets from being pressured by melee with the tradeoff of a 1 sec cast so that it would require some foresight to use it properly. Even now with its current specs, when used by a great prot monk is my favorite small prot to have in a build and has mostly become extinct due to poor monks and the prevalence of aegis anyhow(for a while it was pblock bait, but mesmers seem to be dropping this skill for other elites). Since 3/4 of the warriors today bring conjures that wipe off RoFs on every hit, a 1/4 sec guardian would be incredibly strong and be "red-bar"-able: jsut spam it around on anything taking damage.

skillsbas8 · Aug 08, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

Are you saying that this doesnt put it on par with RoF? At 12 prot, RoF can save 134 damage assuming its maxed out, which on a spike it would be. Guardian on the other hand, give you a "chance" to stop some of their spike. Figuring the average evis spike is ~155 damage plus deep wound even if you block two of the three (Evis, Exe, Agonizing) you still dont save as much damage. With changes in shutdown and prevention it shouldnt be that much of a problem anyways. Like I said earlier...might need to up the recharge, but the only thing changing it the cast time. The blocking mechanism is still the same as it is currently.

No, they're saying it way too strong. If guardian were a 1/4 cast, it would be on par with SoD. A five energy 1/4 cast with 50% block is way too powerful. Its fine as is.

Riotgear · Aug 08, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Maybe I missed something big and important and all but... what the hell's wrong with Shadow Form?

Deadly Paradox is what's wrong with Shadow Form.

Nebuchadnezzer · Aug 08, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Oh, I get it now. It looks like making another A elite skill even less useful and more risky than it is now is now called 'fixing'.
I'd take a shortcut if I were you guys.
"Shadow Form- Elite Enchantment Spell- After 5...17...20 seconds you lose all but 5...41...50 Health."

It's not our fault the entire assassin class was mistake for pvp in general. As with the dervish, paragon and Rit. They all clash with the gameplay on some levels. I wont discuss that because it has been discussed before. Either you get it and its plain to you, or you dont and never will because you choose not to listen to reason. Assassins were badly designed. Teleports were a bad idea. Invincibility skills are a bad idea, and dont tell me "oh em gee just spike em during the downtime", with paradox the downtime is basically null if the sin has any clue on how to play the builds around shadow form.

Master Ketsu · Aug 09, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Ill admit deadly paradox has some problems with it, But not many.

A good way to fix it without completely destroying it would be scaling the recharge based on rank.
25...40..45% faster. With 45% @ 16 Deadly.

Engel the Fallen · Aug 09, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Biggest change needed. One higher level of GvG and HA. Limit two of every class, and give bigger rewards. This style of play is what so many wanted for 2 years, as it forces balanced builds or at least creativity. Also will prevent killing off so many skills, as without five copies of skill hitting, they suddenly are not powerful.

neoflame · Aug 09, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engel the Fallen

Biggest change needed. One higher level of GvG and HA. Limit two of every class, and give bigger rewards. This style of play is what so many wanted for 2 years, as it forces balanced builds or at least creativity. Also will prevent killing off so many skills, as without five copies of skill hitting, they suddenly are not powerful.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...68#post3025768

fripple · Aug 09, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzer

It's not our fault the entire assassin class was mistake for pvp in general. As with the dervish, paragon and Rit. They all clash with the gameplay on some levels. I wont discuss that because it has been discussed before. Either you get it and its plain to you, or you dont and never will because you choose not to listen to reason.

Or, alternatively, your camp is fundamentally incredibly spoiled and self-centered, completely unwilling to allow the meta to swing in a way that you don't want to play because you have some idiotic 1950s mindset where everything was once perfect and any deviation from that must be ruthlessly crushed. See how that kind of totalizing argument swings both ways?

You're boring. Produce ACTUAL solutions or shut up, because getting rid of half the classes in the game is NOT A SOLUTION.

DIH49 · Aug 09, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

You're boring. Produce ACTUAL solutions or shut up, because getting rid of half the classes in the game is NOT A SOLUTION.

Actually it is a solution, it's just not a solution you like. There can be no question that simply removing problems would get rid of problems. I don't particularly like assassins, but I wouldn't shed a tear to see Recall, Shadow Prison, and Shadow Form killed out of the game. AoD could probably stay, and give expose a 2sec cast and that can stay, and make deadly paradox scale up with deadly arts. Make it 50% at 16.

dies like fish · Aug 09, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

To everyone who thinks Spirit Rift does not need a change:

Have you ever tried infusing an ally snared in a rift with prots getting stripped left and right? Six or seven Spirit Rifts do enough damage to force you infuse multiple times, leaving you wide open for a spike with Wielder's Strike. (7x Spirit Rift at 16 Channeling= 142x7= 994 damage not including the Deep Wound from Augury of Death)

BlackSephir · Aug 09, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Deadly Paradox is what's wrong with Shadow Form.

So the problem is Deadly Paradox (again), not Shadow Form. I don't see how 'fixing' i.e. making SF more useless is going to fix Deadly Paradox. And leaving the problematic skill, i.e. Deadly Paradox alone won't fix it.

Quote:

It's not our fault the entire assassin class was mistake for pvp in general.

Lulz.

Quote:

Actually it is a solution, it's just not a solution you like.

Hey, guess what? Removing all classes but Warrior, Monk and Elementalist is also a solution!
It's just pretty stupid, even idiotic.

Quote:

I wouldn't shed a tear to see Recall, Shadow Prison, and Shadow Form killed out of the game.

And I wouldn't shed a tear if Rits, Paragons and Mesmers got kicked out. But guess what? That's not going to happen so speak only then when you have something to say, not gibberish.

Nebuchadnezzer · Aug 09, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Lulz.

Sorry let me clarify. They were bad for high level pvp. Where things like positioning was everything (teleports broke that) and Good skill usage gave good results while bad usage gave bad results ( SP sin = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 that isnt good skill usage and it produces huge damage).

The idea of an assassin is bad for GW, because in order for an assassin class to work they have to be able to solo spike (kill -assassinate- whatever) This goes against the *Team* game that GW was built around. Assassins by definition = SOLO, Guild Wars = NOT.

That better for you?

BlackSephir · Aug 09, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

A bit but there's one important thing...
Assassins ARE in the game and I don't think AN is going ro remove them.

Pathetic 'button-smashing' SP Sins were bad but let's face it- was there any other Sin build that was good? Let's have a fast look at elite skills. Good A's elites for gvg or ha? SP, that's obvious, maybe Moebius for pressure. Other than that? Crap. Assassin's Promise- great thing for pve, too bad it sucks donkey ballz in pve. Siphon Strength... uh-huh. Golden Skull Strike? Wastrel's Collapse? Seeping Wound? Temple Strike? What the hell? Good for RA or AB when the other team doesn't have a monk but in ha/gvg?

So instead of "As are bad, delete em, k?" how about making them something that isn't useless and at the same time isn't overpowered?
I'm playing A so I gave few my ideas- to change completely Seeping Wound and Wastrel's Collapse, to make Wild Strike unblockable (why A's Wild attack has to be inferior to other Wild attacks?) etc.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Aug 09, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

A bit but there's one important thing...
Assassins ARE in the game and I don't think AN is going ro remove them.

Pathetic 'button-smashing' SP Sins were bad but let's face it- was there any other Sin build that was good? Let's have a fast look at elite skills. Good A's elites for gvg or ha? SP, that's obvious, maybe Moebius for pressure. Other than that? Crap.

The old AoD sins with Shock, Falling, Twisting, or even Golden and Dual were good for their time. They also took more skill to play than the new SP sins. That was a different time though without SoR and Mend Touch runners.

twicky_kid · Aug 09, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

The old AoD sins with Shock, Falling, Twisting, or even Golden and Dual were good for their time. They also took more skill to play than the new SP sins. That was a different time though without SoR and Mend Touch runners.

XoO is running an AoD sin right now in gvg and they are the #12 team. Its still very good elite and provides much more options that SP. SP can get you in and score a kill but it won't get you out of danger.

Trylo · Aug 09, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

just wanted to add my opinions...

(in no order)
rits:
1) rifts need to kill eachother like multiple spirits do.
2) spawning needs to actually do something (higher AL, MUCH more health...). if you want to see rits in pvp you need to make their spirits last longer than 4 hits from a war/para/derv/ranger etc.
3) conditional damage is almost always bad for EVERYTHING. conditional effects are useful utility support that make the game fun and balanced (see eles) but tone the rits down.

sins:
1) teleporting needs to die (Sp needs to die). please?
2) deadly paradox needs to scale with deadly arts.
3) BUFF OTHER ELITES. all i ever see sins carrying is SP, Temple, and occasionally skull crack.

Para:
1) aggressive refrain --> -10 AL. simple. do it.
2) actually thats about it... i liked that idea about "echo decay" but i doubt anet would do that.

monk:
1) tone down SoR. +24 armor would be good. (or even a kinda copy of SoD, make it 7 sec duration, +28 armor, +9 health regen so it kinda mimics it then bring down the energy to 10...anyone?)
2) can we buff blessed light so i can use it again? i really liked that spell...
3) also lets make all hex removals remove 1 more hex, that might make it a little more manageable.

and if you havent monked in HA recently please SHUT UP about "oh its so easy to stop AR spike lalalala" those are lies. i promise you it is impossible to stop a good AR spike. they will either kill you with burn/strike after you infuse TWICE to save your ally or they will kill your ally because you have no more health to infuse.
(normal ritspikes are kinda easy, you can usually catch them unless they have someone gaze/rend you during the spike... and then its basically the same problem as AR...)

necro:
1) something about SR and spirits needs to be fixed...still...
2) can we just not allow necros to use the sin secondary please?
3) corrupt ench. is fine leave it.

mesmer:
1) casting time hexes need to not stack. 4 sec LoD = no good. im pretty sure i saw a casting time for prot spirit too.

wars:
1) are fine. conjure is really annoying though...(saw a 100B spike with conjure... didnt trigger SB but still did a lot of damage <_<)

dervish:
1) mel derv needs to go in timeout for a bit...
(whose idea was it to give a 70AL 4e regen a 9-41 damage aoe attack with deep wound? i would really enjoy meeting them... and then saying goodbye to them <_<)

Ele:
1) blurred vision can go back to 1 sec cast??? maybe decrease duration
2) SF needs to be 70/80 damage and burning needs to last 8/9/10 seconds please.

rangers:
1) RaO is ok i think its just the combo of hexstacking and KD that makes it so good

ok im done.

C2K · Aug 09, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

j
Para:
1) aggressive refrain --> -10 AL. simple. do it.
2) actually thats about it... i liked that idea about "echo decay" but i doubt anet would do that.

Is any nerf to the paragon really necessary?? Its a 25 energy, 2 second cast(ranger-warrior bait) skill. Its primary based so only paragons will use it and you can't put it on anyone but yourself.

Paragons don't really need any hard nerfs this time around.